Transcript of proceedings
1 24th May 2005
2
3 ROBERT HAMILL INQUIRY
4 OPENING REMARKS
5
6 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: This is a public inquiry established by the
7 then Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the Right
8 Honourable Paul Murphy, Member of Parliament, under Section
9 44 of the Police (Northern Ireland) Act 1998, to implement
10 the recommendations of the retired Canadian Supreme Court
11 Judge Peter Cory, following an investigation by him into a
12 number of deaths which have occurred in Northern Ireland,
13 among them the death of Robert Hamill.
14 This was an investigation which was made in consequence
15 of an agreement between the British and Irish Governments
16 that his death, among others, should be looked at anew.
17 In setting up this Inquiry the Secretary of State said
18 in explaining his purpose:
19 "It is essential that all people in Northern
20 Ireland can have confidence in the integrity
21 of the State and its institutions. Where
22 there are serious allegations of wrong doing
23 it is important that the facts are properly
24 established. It is important that we find a
25 way in Northern Ireland of dealing with the
26 past in the way that recognises the pain
27 associated with it and without allowing it to
28 destroy all hope of a better future".
29 Perhaps we maybe permitted to add a few words of our own
30 about the hope of a better future: Looking back at the past
1 and particularly seeking to appreciate its impact on present
2 experience can help us to a better understanding of the
3 present and of the future. But if all we do is look at the
4 past we are ignoring the present and the future. A society
5 which is so busy remembering only past conflicts that it
6 ignores the present and doesn't anticipate its future, live
7 in a society without hope, because the very essence of hope
8 lies in having a positive attitude to the future.
9 It is our hope that our work in this inquiry may do a
10 little to help people to look forward with hope. If mutual
11 trust and respect can be built among the people of Northern
12 Ireland, hope is likely to be based on a surer foundation.
13 My colleagues with whom I am conducting this inquiry
14 are the Reverend Baroness Richardson, a former Moderator of
15 the Free Churches Council of England and Wales, and Sir John
16 Evans, formally Chief Constable of Devon and Cornwall.
17 After practising at the Bar of England and Wales I became
18 first a Circuit Judge and then a High Court Judge. I'm now
19 retired. None of us had ever met or held any communication
20 with one another before our appointment to this Inquiry.
21 More detail about us is available on the Inquiry's website.
22 The Acting Secretary to the Inquiry is Mr Brendan
23 Walsh. The Solicitor to the Inquiry is Miss Zaqia Rashid.
24 They are both civil servants. Prior to their appointments
25 to this Inquiry neither of them had been involved in the
26 course of their work in the affairs of Northern Ireland.
27 The address of the Inquiry is PO Box 51056, London, SW1E
28 6WX. The Inquiry's phone number is 020 7976 0473. Its fax
29 number is 020 7200 9297. Its E-Mail address is
30 [email protected]. Its website address is
1 www.roberthamillinquiry.org.
2 Our Terms of Reference are as follows:
3 "To inquire into the death of Robert Hamill
4 with a view to determining whether any
5 wrongful act or omission by or within the
6 Royal Ulster Constabulary facilitated his
7 death or obstructed the investigation of it,
8 or whether attempts were made to do so;
9 whether any such act or omission was
10 intentional or negligent; whether the
11 investigation of his death was carried out
12 with due diligence; and to make
13 recommendations".
14 The need for this Inquiry to be set up by Government arises
15 from three facts. Firstly, the agreement between the
16 British and Irish Governments and the recommendations by
17 Justice Cory. Secondly, only an Inquiry set up by
18 Government under an Act of Parliament would have power to
19 pursue the appropriate investigations in relation to Robert
20 Hamill's death. Thirdly, it was necessary that the work of
21 the Inquiry should be facilitated by proper funding.
22 Having said this, it is important to point out that we
23 are independent of Government or any other body or person.
24 We control the conduct of this Inquiry and we decide what
25 evidence we shall receive. The decisions and
26 recommendations which we make following the conclusion of
27 the Inquiry and which will be set out in our report to the
28 Secretary of State, will be ours and ours alone.
29 We are quite independent in all these matters of the
30 Northern Ireland Office. A fact which the officials of the
1 Northern Ireland Office have been at pains to make clear in
2 our dealings with them. Nor shall we allow ourselves to be
3 led or improperly influenced by others, whoever they maybe.
4 I have said this is a public inquiry, this means that
5 our hearings will be conducted in public. There may,
6 exceptionally and only for good reason, be occasions when
7 some particular piece of evidence cannot be heard in public
8 or has to be given in a manner which will preserve the
9 anonymity of the witness. The same considerations may arise
10 in relation to written evidence. Whether any of this will
11 arise once we begin our public hearings I do not yet know.
12 If it is argued in relation to any evidence or witness that
13 they do, the argument will have to be considered and ruled
14 upon as and when it arises.
15 At the outset of work in public we would like to
16 express our sincere condolences to Caroline Maguire, the
17 children of the late Robert Hamill and to his family for his
18 untimely death. As well as being a matter which has given
19 rise to considerable public interest and concern, none of us
20 should lose sight of the fact that Robert Hamill's death was
21 and is a matter of sadness and grief to those who mourn him.
22 We express the confident hope that no one having business
23 before this Inquiry will forget this and that we shall all
24 remember that whether or not Robert Hamill was of one faith
25 or another, he was a fellow human being.
26 We ask that anyone who has any relevant information to
27 contribute should provide it as soon as possible to the
28 Inquiry solicitor. Anyone who has any suggestions to make
29 about a possible line of inquiry is also asked to do the
30 same as soon as possible.
1 These are two important requests because the evidence
2 and the issues to be considered will be prepared and
3 presented by Counsel to the Inquiry. Theirs is a neutral
4 role, as is appropriate for lawyers whose task is not to
5 argue a case but firstly to place before us, all the
6 evidence and considerations which have any relevance to the
7 issues of fact which we shall have to decide, and secondly,
8 to assist us also to decide what recommendations it is
9 appropriate for us to make to the Secretary of State.
10 We should like to stress that we embark upon our task
11 without any preconception as to where the truth lies. We
12 are anxious to do all we reasonably can to discover that.
13 The evidence placed before us may vary in its quality,
14 but we are sure that it is only by considering and weighing
15 all the evidence which has relevance to our Terms of
16 Reference, that we can properly perform our task of seeking
17 after the truth.
18 These proceedings are unlike a civil or criminal trial
19 in which there are two sides with each side calling its own
20 witnesses and advancing its own case. It seems certain that
21 we shall have conflicting evidence upon various issues.
22 Counsel to the Inquiry will present all the evidence and
23 test it so as to assist us to reach our conclusions. From
24 time to time we may ourselves ask questions.
25 Interested parties though will not be permitted, as a
26 matter of course, to question witnesses, still less to call
27 their own witnesses. However, if we are persuaded there is
28 good reason to do so in the case of any particular witness,
29 persons who have been given the right to be heard or their
30 advocates will be allowed in addition to Counsel to the
1 Inquiry, to put questions. Depending on the submissions
2 made to us that permission may or may not relate to all
3 aspects of the witness's evidence. I shall be vigilant to
4 restrict questions to those which are relevant to our Terms
5 of Reference and to prevent repetition and long windedness.
6 Such questions will follow questions by Counsel to the
7 Inquiry who, at their conclusion, will be permitted to ask
8 further questions.
9 If anyone should seek himself to call a witness rather
10 than that he or she should be called by Counsel to the
11 Inquiry, there will need to be very good justification for
12 this. Save for the material protected by public immunity,
13 the statements of the witnesses to be called by Counsel to
14 the Inquiry will be provided to the interested parties or
15 their legal advisers before we begin hearing evidence, to
16 assist them in their preparation.
17 It is obviously important in the interest of fairness
18 to all of them that they shall know, so far as possible,
19 what is the general tenor of the evidence to be adduced. To
20 allow interested parties to call their own witnesses in the
21 absence of a very strong reason would militate against this
22 and might delay proceedings if new matter were to be
23 introduced in this way and it became apparent, as a
24 consequence, that a witness already called might have had
25 something to say on the point and so had to be recalled.
26 Although I have said copies of witness statements will
27 be provided to interested parties, it must be understood
28 that some of them may have to be redacted by omitting
29 identifying details and, in any event, statements will only
30 be provided on the basis that their contents are not to be
1 divulged, save for the purpose of taking instructions in the
2 period running up to the hearing of oral evidence and it
3 becomes clear at the hearing that the statement will be part
4 of the evidence presented to the Inquiry.
5 An undertaking to this effect will be required from
6 interested parties and their legal advisers as a
7 pre-condition to the provision of statements. The form of
8 undertaking which will have to be signed, is available from
9 the Secretary to the Inquiry. In general, witnesses'
10 addresses will not be included in their statements. If the
11 address of any witness is sought, application should be made
12 to the Solicitor to the Inquiry with an explanation of why
13 it is required. The application will be considered and a
14 decision made upon it.
15 Witnesses who give evidence to this Inquiry will not be
16 obliged, if they chose not to, and though they may receive
17 advice about it, the decision is theirs, to answer any
18 question, the answer to which might incriminate them in
19 respect of any criminal or police disciplinary offence of
20 which they had not been convicted.
21 Once the hearing of evidence is concluded, or as its
22 conclusion draws close, we shall consider whether to proceed
23 straight away after its conclusion to submissions or whether
24 to allow a few days interval to enable those who will be
25 making them to complete their preparation. Counsel to the
26 Inquiry will address us first, that will be followed by any
27 submissions made by or on behalf of interested parties.
28 When the submissions are concluded, Counsel to the Inquiry
29 will be permitted to make such further submissions as arise
30 out of them.
1 We are very conscious of the many emotions to which the
2 death of Robert Hamill has given rise, and we repeat that
3 our overriding concern in this Inquiry will be to do the
4 best with all we can to ascertain where the truth lies to
5 consider the issues raised by our Terms of Reference.
6 We set out the principal issues to which evidence will
7 be addressed and which we shall have to consider:
8 (i) Could and should the RUC have done more
9 to avert Robert Hamill's death by way of
10 better policing provisions on the night of
11 26th, 27th April 1997?
12 (ii) If so, was the failure to make that
13 provision negligent or deliberate?
14 (iii) Could and should the RUC officers at
15 the scene of the attack on Robert Hamill have
16 done anything or refrained from doing
17 something, so as to prevent his death?
18 (iv) If so, was the act or omission negligent
19 or deliberate?
20 (v) Could and should RUC officers present at
21 the scene have done more to identify and
22 facilitate the prosecution of the
23 perpetrators?
24 (vi) If so, was the omission negligent or
25 deliberate?
26 (vii) Did any RUC officer attempt to obstruct
27 the investigation of the death of Robert
28 Hamill?
29 (vii) If so, was any such attempt successful?
30 (ix) Could and should the RUC have done more
1 to investigate firstly Robert Hamill's death
2 and secondly any attempted obstruction into
3 the investigation itself?
4 (x) If so, was the omission negligent or
5 deliberate?
6 (xi) What recommendations should be made?
7 There will no doubt be other issues.
8
9 I come next to the proceedings: Subject to the need to
10 retain some flexibility to the circumstances which may
11 arise, our aim is to sit on Tuesdays to Fridays, generally
12 from 10.30 in the morning to 4.30 in the afternoon, breaking
13 off for lunch from 1 o'clock to 2 o'clock. On Fridays we may
14 sit earlier so as to rise earlier. We propose to sit for
15 four weeks at a time with a one week break between each four
16 week stint. As we come up to Christmas we may go over or
17 under a four week stint. We shall not resume after
18 Christmas until Tuesday, 24th January.
19 The hearings are expected to take place in Belfast. At
20 this stage it is difficult to say precisely when the hearing
21 of evidence will begin but it will not be before Tuesday,
22 15th November, bearing in mind the time needed to enable
23 Solicitor and Counsel to the Inquiry to gather and prepare
24 the evidence and for interested parties to consider it. We
25 shall consider whether, in order to assist interested
26 parties, the witness statements can be provided in tranches.
27 Next I come to our own preparations: To prepare
28 ourselves for the Inquiry we visited Portadown on 26th
29 January this year, when we walked round the streets forming
30 the crossroads where or near to which Robert Hamill received
1 his injuries. We looked particularly at sight lines from
2 various points. We also drove up to the grounds of the
3 Rugby Football Club to see where they lie in relation to the
4 town centre.
5 We did not announce our visit because we wished to see
6 the site without attracting attention and without
7 distraction. However, if we are asked to do so, we shall
8 make a further visit to Portadown in the presence of the
9 interested parties and their legal advisers to see whatever
10 they wish to draw to our attention.
11 We shall also wish to see the Land Rover which was used
12 on the night in question or one similar, to see what would
13 be seen from it in different locations and what could be
14 heard inside it of what was going on outside.
15 We have read or will soon have completed reading the
16 following books and articles:
17 Making sense of the troubles by David McKittrick.
18 A history of Northern Ireland 1920 to 1996, by Thomas
19 Hennessey.
20 Arming the Protestants: Formation of the Ulster Special
21 Constabulary and the Royal Ulster Constabulary, 1920 to
22 1927, by Michael Farrell.
23 Drumcree: The Orange Order's Last Stand, by Chris Ryder.
24 Standoff, by Gordon Lucy.
25 Orange Citadel: The History of Orangeism in Portadown, by
26 David Jones.
27 From Civil Rights to Armalites: Derry and the Birth of the
28 Irish Troubles, by Niall O'Dochartaigh.
29 Northern Protestants: An Unsettled People, by Susan McKay.
30 Political Rituals: Loyalist Parades in Portadown, by
1 Dominic Bryans, TG Frazer and Seamus Dunn.
2 And those parts of Cameron and Scarman reports which deal
3 with the general background in Northern Ireland against
4 which the incidents being investigated in their inquiries
5 occurred.
6 We are all comparative strangers to Northern Ireland
7 and in particular to Portadown and its ethos. I had never
8 visited Northern Ireland until after my appointment to this
9 Inquiry. Bearing this in mind, we have sought to learn
10 something of the troubled background against which the
11 events of the 27th April 1997 and subsequent investigations
12 were played out and the continuing turmoil after that, in
13 order, as we hope, the better to understand the evidence
14 placed before us. Anyone who is familiar with the material
15 we have read or wishes to read it, will see that the
16 publications were not all written from the same standpoint.
17 We shall also read the witness statements before the
18 hearing of evidence begins. When we come to the fact
19 finding evidence we shall take account both of what we hear
20 from witnesses and what they say in their statements.
21 Whether in the case of any witness we gain more assistance
22 from his or her oral evidence or written statement about a
23 particular matter, is something we shall not decide upon
24 until we begin to consider our findings. In an Inquiry such
25 as this, there are no formal rules of evidence and we shall
26 also take under consideration hearsay evidence, though we
27 shall of course remind ourselves of the limited value which
28 hearsay may often, but not necessarily, have.
29 This concludes my remarks at this morning's session.
30 If there are any submissions or applications to be made at
1 this stage we shall hear them at 2 o'clock. If there are, it
2 would be helpful if those who wish to make them would inform
3 briefly either the Solicitor or Counsel to the Inquiry of
4 their substance. I stress submissions or applications will
5 have to be relevant to the work of this Inquiry.
6 If there is an afternoon session it cannot be filmed or
7 photographed.
8 HEARING ADJOURNED 11.30
9
10
11 On resuming 2.00:
12 MR UNDERWOOD: Good afternoon. There have been a number of
13 expressions of interests since your opening remarks, may I
14 attempt to marshall them.
15 Mr McGrory is here on behalf of the family and has no
16 submissions to make and has stayed out of courtesy to the
17 panel for this afternoon.
18 Mr Magill is here for Mr X, as I shall call that
19 witness for the moment, and Mr Daly is for Mrs X, as I shall
20 call her for the moment. For the avoidance of doubt I have
21 asked to be handed up on pieces of paper the names of those
22 witnesses for the panel's sake, they do have submissions to
23 make.
24 The next in the running order is Maggie O'Connor who is
25 here on behalf of the Committee for the Administration of
26 Justice, she again wishes to makes submissions. To her
27 right Miss Jane Winter on behalf of the British and Irish
28 Rights Watch.
29 The only other expression of interest for this
30 afternoon as I understand it, is on behalf of the Northern
1 Ireland Human Rights Commission and I have been asked to say
2 on their behalf, they have indicated as a consequence of its
3 continuing interest in the case and related matters that
4 they will be making submissions to the Inquiry in due
5 course.
6 So perhaps I can invite those who have applications to
7 make to do that.
8 MR MCGRORY: If it please Sir, members of the panel, Mr Chairman,
9 my name is McGrory, I am the solicitor on record for the
10 Hamill family and I seek really to give my appearance today.
11 We had a useful administration meeting with Counsel to the
12 Inquiry and Solicitor to the Inquiry already, and we will
13 just take it from there. I would like to put that on the
14 record.
15 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Thank you. Mr Magill?
16 MR MAGILL: I would like to introduce myself, I am a barrister
17 instructed by Ciaran Rafferty solicitors and we act on
18 behalf of Mr X at this stage and we have no submissions at
19 this point.
20 MR DALY: I appear Sir in relation to Mrs X, who appears in the
21 Cory Report. I am led by Mr Tracey QC and we are instructed
22 by Arthur J Downey and Company, Solicitors.
23 Again we would like to put on record our appearance
24 today. An application has been submitted to the Inquiry in
25 relation to representation on behalf of our client and also
26 in relation to funding which are interlinked aspects. There
27 has been no response as yet in relation to that application
28 and much...
29 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: There will be a response in due course.
30 MR DALY: In due course, well then perhaps at this stage it is
1 not appropriate to comment further other than to have the
2 appearance on record and to have the Tribunal note the
3 application.
4 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Miss O'Connor.
5 MISS O'CONNOR: Thank you very much for hearing us. My name is
6 Maggie O'Connor for the Committee of Administration of
7 Justice. There are a number of issues we would like to put
8 on record. The Committee on the Administration of Justice
9 have been active for quite a while in seeking an independent
10 judicial public inquiry into the killing of Robert Hamill.
11 We are an independent cross-community human rights
12 group and we have been working on the broad human rights
13 platform from 1981 to give you some idea of the background.
14 We warmly welcome the establishment of this Inquiry and its
15 commitment to finding the truth about all the circumstances
16 surrounding the murder of Robert Hamill, and the
17 investigations that followed his death.
18 CAJ wants to co-operate as fully as possible with every
19 stage of the Inquiry and we will, along with many others
20 here in Northern Ireland and further afield, obviously be
21 monitoring developments quite closely.
22 We intend to respond in writing to the statement issued
23 today by the Inquiry, but by way of preliminary remarks we
24 would just like to draw the following issues to the
25 attention of yourselves: We believe that the list of core
26 issues developed by the Inquiry seems very appropriate but
27 doesn't perhaps go far enough.
28 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: May I just say this about that, I did say
29 there would be more issues. The list of issues was not
30 intended to be exhausted. If you say there are other issues
1 which ought to be considered then the best course will be to
2 put them into writing and give them to Mr Underwood so that
3 he can consider them.
4 MISS O'CONNOR: We would wish to do that. I think if we just
5 wish to submit to you today that again just very briefly...
6 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Forgive me, I think now is not the time and
7 the way it is best done is to assist Counsel to the Inquiry.
8 If at the hearing the Committee for the Administration of
9 Justice wishes to make representations, then it should apply
10 in the usual way for the right to be heard and it will be
11 helpful if it makes that application to say what it is that
12 your body thinks it will be able to contribute to the
13 deliberations of the Inquiry, because it should not be
14 assumed that anyone, even though he maybe representative of
15 bodies such as yours, can simply come along and say well I
16 want to make representations.
17 So if you wish to make representations and not simply
18 make suggestions to Counsel to the Inquiry, it will be much
19 better and helpful if you set out on paper why it is that
20 you wish to make representations, in other words what
21 contribution you wish to make and say you can make.
22 MISS O'CONNOR: Certainly you would wish to receive written
23 submissions from us on any of the other points in relation
24 to the issues...
25 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: I think before you make submissions, I would
26 like to know first what it is you wish to contribute. It
27 maybe, I do understand, difficult to say what it is that you
28 wish to contribute without saying something about your
29 submissions, but they are two separate stages.
30 MISS O'CONNOR: I think we would wish to address the Inquiry on
1 this, it is twofold, one to perhaps that it might be helpful
2 to the Inquiry that there are certain lines of inquiry that
3 obviously having been so closely involved in the case over
4 the years that...
5 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Those in the first place will be better
6 addressed to Mr Underwood, and he will tell you whether or
7 not they are lines of Inquiry he intends to pursue. If
8 there is more you can contribute than simply saying you
9 ought to look at so and so. If you have information or
10 evidence which shows why he should look at so and so and
11 what might be the result, again that will be very welcome.
12 MISS O'CONNOR: Thank you very much.
13 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Yes.
14 MISS WINTER: I am Jane Winter, I am the Director of the British
15 Irish Rights Watch and we are an independent
16 non-governmental organisation that monitor the human rights
17 dimension of the conflict and peace process in Northern
18 Ireland. We take no position on the outcome of that peace
19 process and our services are available regardless of
20 religious political or community affiliations.
21 Bearing in mind the remarks that you have just made
22 Sir, I intend to make written submissions to Mr Underwood
23 about the list of issues, where we also have concerns from
24 what you have said today, on issues that we believe are
25 germane and not yet on that list, but I am hopeful that once
26 we have made representations they will be.
27 I don't anticipate we will be asking for rights of
28 representation before the Tribunal but we are obviously here
29 to help in any way we can, having already made the very
30 detailed submission to yourselves.
1 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: As I have said, if you make them, your
2 suggestions in the first place to Mr Underwood and then if
3 his answer satisfies you, so be it, if it doesn't, then you
4 will be able to, if you wish, apply for leave to make
5 representations to us.
6 MISS WINTER: Thank you very much. There are two other issues we
7 would also like to make submissions about, immunity from
8 prosecution, in particular in relation to holders of high
9 public office which we believe maybe at issue in this
10 particular investigation.
11 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Can I help you on that, we have not received
12 any applications for immunity. If and when we do, they will
13 have to be considered. It is not within our province to say
14 there should or should not be immunity. We can, if we think
15 it appropriate, make recommendations either that they are or
16 they are not granted, but we have to wait until someone does
17 apply for immunity otherwise we are simply dealing with what
18 is merely hypothetical.
19 MISS WINTER: I understand that Sir, but I think there are some
20 principals that this case raises which you might wish to
21 consider. You may of course reject our submissions, we
22 would like to make them in any case.
23 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: If there are applications for immunity from
24 any people, I shall have to consider them and it maybe that
25 I shall have a hearing in London to deal with them or it may
26 come to that if my decision is not to the applicant's
27 liking. At one stage or another I should be seeking
28 assistance from Mr Underwood, and so that in the first
29 place, why not put your principals to him to see whether he
30 agrees with them and is prepared, if the matter does arise,
1 to put them before us.
2 MISS WINTER: Thank you I will certainly do that.
3 There are two other small matters; one is that I
4 understand that it is hoped that the process will be largely
5 paperless and I am concerned both in relation to the Hamill
6 family with whom we have worked ever since the time of
7 Robert's death, but also in relation to other members of the
8 public, that that may make these proceedings somewhat less
9 accessible than otherwise. I hope that some provision will
10 be made.
11 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: May I just deal firstly with the Hamill
12 family, have you spoken to Mr McGrory about this and asked
13 whether he thinks his clients will be at a disadvantage?
14 MISS WINTER: I have had a brief conversation with him but...
15 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Because he has not so far said that he doesn't
16 want it to be paperless and he might be in the best position
17 to know.
18 MR MCGRORY: In ease of Miss Winter, this issue was discussed at
19 the administrative meeting to which I referred earlier and I
20 have not spoken to her since then. In her ease I might just
21 say that to the panel and I will discuss it with her later.
22 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Can I just say this, I hope you won't think I
23 am being harsh, best to leave the Hamill family in the
24 capable care of Mr McGrory as far as papers or no papers.
25 But what about other people?
26 MISS WINTER: I am concerned that not everybody has the
27 technology or the resources, financial resources to access
28 information on a purely paperless basis. I hope you will
29 give some consideration. I am not suggesting that it should
30 not be generally speaking a paperless process, I am all in
1 favour of that, but I hope that there will be some way of
2 making sure that other people who cannot interact with the
3 paperless process will nonetheless be able to get
4 information should they need it, should they want a copy of
5 the transcript of the hearing.
6 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Well now, how do you envisage this working?
7 You see there maybe hundreds, it maybe thousands of pages of
8 paper, one couldn't say to everyone who said well I'm quite
9 interested in what the Inquiry is doing, it couldn't be
10 really expected to provide all that number of pages to that
11 person.
12 MISS WINTER: It maybe possible to make a copy available in a
13 public place if people could consult if they would like to.
14 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: There is that difficulty about that. Until it
15 is clear that the evidence will be before the Inquiry, those
16 documents must remain confidential in the hands of those who
17 legitimately receive them so that there will be no question
18 in those circumstances of making them public knowledge.
19 MISS WINTER: But the transcript of the proceedings presumably
20 will be on the internet?
21 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: The transcript of the proceeding will be.
22 MISS WINTER: All I am suggesting is that not everybody has
23 access to the internet and it will be, I am simply asking
24 that you give consideration to making it available in some
25 other way, if there is a demand for it. I maybe wrong in
26 thinking there is.
27 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: It is come the hearing that you are hoping? I
28 will see what Mr Underwood can say about that to help us.
29 MISS WINTER: Lastly I wanted to say that, I should have said
30 that at the outset, how much we welcome this Inquiry as well
1 and we welcome your assurances concerning the independence
2 of the Inquiry. But in light of the process of redaction
3 which was carried out to Judge Cory's report by the
4 Secretary of State, we would ask you to resist any attempt
5 at over-zealous or inappropriate redaction of your own final
6 report which is what we think happened in Judge Cory's case.
7 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Can I again help you. Our report, because
8 this is the provision of the statute, goes to the Secretary
9 of State. It goes to the Secretary of State in an
10 unredacted form. After that it is a matter for the
11 Secretary of State whether he publishes it, how much he
12 publishes, whether there are any redactions. Common sense
13 suggests that he could not simply not publish the report in
14 view of the reasons which have led to the setting up of this
15 Inquiry. But if you are anxious about redactions then I
16 think your appropriate or the appropriate recipient of your
17 representations is the Secretary of State himself.
18 MISS WINTER: I will.
19 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: We have no control over that.
20 MISS WINTER: I am sure you have influence Sir?
21 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: I very much doubt whether it really is
22 appropriate or helpful to us to say we think there should
23 not be any redactions.
24 MISS WINTER: I can see that you may wish to make redactions
25 yourselves for perfectly good reason, what I am concerned
26 about is many many redactions made to the point which means
27 it will be unable to understand the report which is what
28 happened to Judge Cory's report.
29 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: There will not be any redactions by us, it
30 maybe that we shall have to conclude that certain
1 information should not be made public. There maybe
2 information which is covered by public interest immunity if
3 we so rule. Nonetheless that will be part of the material
4 which we are entitled to consider in making our report and
5 there will, I assure you, be no redactions to our report.
6 If there are redactions in anything that the Secretary of
7 State publishes that must be for him, that is why I say if
8 you are anxious about redactions, your appropriate course is
9 to make your representations to the Secretary of State
10 because he will receive from us an unredacted report. Does
11 that assist you?
12 MISS WINTER: It has, thank you very much.
13 MR UNDERWOOD: That concludes. I am very grateful if I may say
14 so, to everyone for their courteous and civilised response
15 to the opening remarks. I sincerely hope that is a
16 pre-cursor of the way in which the entire Inquiry will now
17 run. Can I also say that Miss Anderson and I very warmly
18 welcome any submissions and any lines of Inquiry that
19 anybody wishes to feed into our process. Can I say finally
20 that we will of course consider everything that has been
21 said today and in particular we will consider what
22 Miss Winter says about the possibility of placing in the
23 public library the transcript as it comes out.
24 SIR EDWIN JOWITT: Does that satisfy your anxieties?
25 MISS WINTER: It would, certainly.
26 MR UNDERWOOD: Unless there is anything else I can add, thank you
27 very much.
28 HEARING ADJOURNED
29
30
